Hi,
any info on this tschako is appreciated....[attachmentid=118597][attachmentid=118598]

more pics...[attachmentid=118599]

...[attachmentid=118600]

Never seen anything like this...looks like a total fabrication done with a WWII Rural Polizei shako. Just my 2 cents.

Robert

Thanks for your reply.
Robert, let me asure you this is one pretty rare item and it is authentique,too.This is not at all a police item,it is an officer´s tschako from the Prussian infantry,machinegun unit.Used about 1903-1915 by MG-Units 1-7,but here is where I start drying out of info.I would have liked to get more background info.When I searched books the closest I get is the EM version,so this one has to be pretty rare(could not find another one pictured).

Regards

Mushashi might be your man to ask on this piece...it gives me the creeps.

Robert

Thanks,Robert!
So I will ask Musashi...

Regards

Hi Rosenberg,

Well, i am not really a Tscako fan, I am afraid Robert is right abt this tscako, it does looks fishy to me.

The chinscales looks rather too loose/big for the tscako, and there is something that is very weird, all tsackos have only ONE kokarde, the reich (red white black) which is worn on the RIGHT side. Whereas yours have BOTH state (Prussian) and Reich kokarden, which is incorrect....

Can you post a clearer shot abt the wappen, pls? And if possible the close up of the eagle's crown.
And I thought all officer's tsacko is covered with fine wool or black leather?

Btw, how do you know that its rare? Did the seller told you so? I dont have the reference book with me now, i wll check it out tonite abt the regiments and let you know asap.


Hope this helps,
Mush

Btw,
are there any extra holes inside the tscako? There should be only 2 holes for the wappen amd are there any ventilation 'vents' on the upper part of the tscako?

regards,
Mush

I am afraid the double rosette with one sided Reichskokade and the other black is a style used from 1895 on and this is also correct.
I accept you don´t like it but won´t show further pics-I thank you for your opinions.

Regards

I apologise for being impolite and not having answered your questions! Sorry for that.
Well,I have not handled anything like this tschako before and when I looked through books I must admit most of the tschakos had black leather and looked kinda boring. The eagle has a voided crown.I was not at all told by any seller this would be a rare piece.This comment is based on my observation from trying to retrieve info on it.

Regards
[attachmentid=119345]

Looks like a correct officer's Tschako for MG detachments 1 through 7 just as Rosenberger said. Like Mush indicated, photos of the air vents would be most helpful.

Hi Rosenberg,

Oops, I am the one who should apologize, i just checked with the books again, well, I did find 3 references of the tscakos belonging to MG Regiments and they just look like yours.
It seems that the black wooled or leather tscakos are only for the jaeger and Schutzen rgts (rifles and, hmm, I forget whats a schutzen?)

Yours had the correct officer feldzeichen, it has the embroidered bullion isntead of cloth for EM, but here is what puzzles me, of all the reference books, all of them only has ONE kokarde, thats the Reich one, the state's is infact placed on the feldzeichen.

Perhaps someone could explain to me?

Cheers,
mush

Seems like you have the real books I didn´t come across

Ok,now the double kokarde is starting to get me worried,too.I will try to get info on that.
Now here is a shot of the venting hole,there is one on each side[attachmentid=119404]

Thats a neat air vent holes, will compare them with the reference books again tonite.

As for the wappen, yours seems to be a legit wappen, with the voided crown, typical of an officer's wappen. And you and halbich are rigt, there were only 7 pre war MG regts (Prussian).

Yeah, the double kokarden is puzzling, as there should be only one kokarde, whereas the state 'identity' was worn as feldzeichen.

Here is a very useful site, its Tony's site, its abt Tscako, well, Tony is the guru of all haubes.

http://kaisersbunker.com/pt/tschako.htm

Hope this helps,
mush

PS,

Whats even more puzzling, the 2 kokarden are of the officer's type! Are there any tampering marks inside the helmet? Are the kokarden prongs intact? What abt extra holes?

Could the term 'private purchase/officer' really means that its a private choice of regulation?? hence placing the prussian kokarde where there should be only one reich kokarde?

Rosenberger, the vents certainly seem to push it over the top as all original. Unlike the O/R Tschako, the officers' were screened.

Interestingly Reiner Herrmann, "Militaerische Kopfbedeckungen der Kaiserzeit", presnts a photo of a Jaeger officer's Tschako that is plainly sporting both a national Feldzeichen and national (left)Korkade. The text, however indicates right Korkade only.

Even though the Tschako is Prussian, it is probably quite rare as there were only seven detachments in which such officers' head gear would appear. These were company sized units and not Regiments thus far fewer officers. I also believe that these Abteilung were formed only shortly before the war so that would indicate a much shorter period of use than perhaps a Jaeger Tschako.

Thanks for your comments ,Habicht,very much appreciated.Can you confirm a detachment at Bit(s)ch,Lothringen/Elsass ?

Regards

Rosenberg, they were all garrisoned in the East;

MGA1 - I Corps attached Gren Reg 1 Koenigsberg
MGA2 - XXCorps attached Inf Reg 147 Loetzen
MGA3 - XVIICorps attached Inf Reg 141 Graudenz
MGA4 - XVIICorps attached Inf Reg 129 Graudenz
MGA5 - XVIICorps attached Inf Reg 21 Thorn
MGA6 - V Corps attached Inf Reg 47 Posen
MGA7 - VIIICorps attached Inf Reg 65 Koeln-Riehl

You'll notice that most are in Prussia or East Prussia. Also of some interest are the XVII and XX Corps both of which played significant roles in the 1914 Battle of Tannenberg.

Are there any markings on the inside such as an owner's name?

Thanks again,Habicht,for clearing that up. I am afraid there are no markings on the inside other than a pencil written 9.

Regards

Hi guys,

So sorry for the late reply, i was out of town on the weekend. Habich and Rosenberg are right, the MGs were nt found in Regimental strangth, but in Abteilung/units/detachments/batteries.

I was looking through some books and came across an intersting article abt MG tschako. It was written in the 4th Ed of the Le Uhlan, and its a translation of M. Fritz Kersten's Zeitschrift fur Heereskunde.
It was stated that prior to the Great War, there were 11 MG detachments (9 Prussian, 1 Saxon and 1 Bavarian), 15 Fortress detachmens. And suddenly, in 1914 there were another 113 companies of infantry machine gunners. The devastating effect of this weapon (the MG) meant that the MG companies were counted by the hundreds by the end of the war in 1918.
It also described the MG tschako, it says that for parade a black plume was worn, fixed behind the kokade/feldzeichen, whereas the Reich/imperial kokade was placed behind the right chinscale boss. It only refers to a single kokade in the chinscale boss.
But your double kokade looks original to the body and they are of the proper officer's, which is confusing.

The Le Uhlan also came with the period drawing, by Knotttel I think, for the MG units.
Notice the Officer on horse back, the 'paradeanzug Unteroffizier (Prussian MG A 7) 1917 and the EM 'Exerzieranzug Schutze (Prussian MG A 4), both has NO kokade on their left chinscale bosses.
Wheras the Bavarian '1914 watchanzug Jagaer 2 JB) clearly wear a kokade on his right chinscale boss.
Btw, the Bavarian MG unit wore the same tschako as the Jaeger Batt.

Hope this helps,
Mush